Nov 11, 2010 4:11 AM
700 vs James Tyler
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Dec 28, 2010 1:02 AM by
frenchfries 
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the new VAX models sound better for sure. i just got thru dong some studio sessions with a producer who has used VAX guitars in the past (acoustic and 700 model electric) and he told me immediately tht the new models sound significantly better to his ears.
the 12 string model in particular really caught his ear.
i did some live gigs last week, and the other guitarists had "real" strats and teles, and the JTV-69 kinda sounded better than either of those guitars. it sounds more like a strat than a strat does
i really dig the Tyler designed pickups in the JTV-69, they sound great -- was doing one gig and my battery died for the VAX, so i played the rest of the nite with the passive pickups and it sounded GOOD
this is my dream guitar, and i am LOVING IT
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djib wrote:
Thanks for your feedback. It makes me want this guitar even more
Have you tried out the 59's pickups? I have a nice strat but I don't own a LP and I'm gessing the natural sound on the 59 could fill that spot.
Hi - I'm at least one if there might be others thinking of doing the same thing. I'm the guy referred to in a previous post that is and has done a side by side comparison vid of several Vax 700 guitar models and the new JTV guitar models. Same models, same amp - just much improved sound on most models.
In my opinion the most significantly improved sounds are the acoustic sounds of every type. The least improved sound are the two 12-string Rickenbacker electric guitars. And even at that, it still much better on the lower half of the neck and gts a bit "synthetic" sounding in the higher registers.
I'm in the process of editing out all the irrelevant bit that got recorded, plus then I WANT, not NEED to have Rich R. see them first and give a thumbs up or down before posting them live on YT, FB, and on the Tyler Variax Forum. one thing is certain - these videos are not biased in any way, just me and a friend playing real guitars against the new modeling, then the older vax against the ew JTV modeling. I certainly express my opinion about what I feel about the sounds, but I leave the rest up to anyone taking the time to watch and listen to decide if the difference is worth making the purchase.
Give me until shortly after the Thanksgiving holidays to get this done for approval and whenever I get that - I'll post them live for the world to see & hear.
Neal
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MerlinFL wrote:
Did you take in account the lenght of cable used? Its capacitance depends on its lenght and has necessarily a strong impact on the real Strat tone. :-)
Ideally, it would be interesting to use a 4,5 to 6m wire, since it appears to be the lenght / capacitance that Vax models emulate, without saying it.
BTW, I've recently done a side by side comparison between my trusty 2003 Variax 500 and a real L series Strat (an early model dated from sep. 1962). I've not kept any serious recording but I must have somewhere a couple of screenshots summing up the frequencies produced by the two axes. Bottom Line, the Vax 500 59 Strat emulation had "something" of the real thing but was muddier/bassier, with an added mid "honk" and less dynamic - at least through a real amp: these differences tend to disappear through a digital modeler and/or recording. :-)
Regards,
FF
Length of cable???? Seriously???
The length of a unbalanced instrument cable UP TO 25 feet has almost no signal loss. If you are using a unbalanced cable for any reason longer than 25 feet - STOP and get a direct box, use a 25 foot cable MAXIMUM, then run the BALANCED signal from the Direct Box into your PA or what other thing you are trying to plug into at such a long distance. If you are needing to use such long cables to hook up into a typical guitar amp, then you will need TWO Direct Boxes. One where the guitar is, and one where the amp is so you will have a BALANCED signal for the majority of the length of your cable.
Anything else is simply wrong.
"The length of a unbalanced instrument cable UP TO 25 feet has almost no signal loss?" That's just not true. A guitar cable is a big long capacitor and different guitar cables vary widely in their capacitance. Combined with the source impedance, cable capacitance forms a low-pass filer between the instrument and amplifier; that is, it cuts high frequencies, much as the instrument’s tone control does. Compare a quality cable that has perhaps 22 pF/ft capacitance with one that has 50 pF/ft and you will defintely hear the difference even under 25 feet. For comparison, a common spec for capacitors used on tone controls for guitars with humbuckers is .022 uF. So using the cheap cable, say 20 feet, is like having your tone control engaged about 5% all the time. 5% seems small, but that 5% is what we guitar tone junkies are always looking for
. That almost imperceptable bit of sparkle that makes the guitar tone come alive.Now, you can purposefull use that to your advantage. Hendrix would often purposefully use a high capacitance cable live to tame a bit of the strat high end and get a fuller sound. A cable is a tool for tone like anything else from your pick and fingers all the way to the speaker.
OK, maybe I waxed a bit philosophical here.
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grimm26 wrote:
MerlinFL wrote:
Did you take in account the lenght of cable used? Its capacitance depends on its lenght and has necessarily a strong impact on the real Strat tone. :-)
Ideally, it would be interesting to use a 4,5 to 6m wire, since it appears to be the lenght / capacitance that Vax models emulate, without saying it.
BTW, I've recently done a side by side comparison between my trusty 2003 Variax 500 and a real L series Strat (an early model dated from sep. 1962). I've not kept any serious recording but I must have somewhere a couple of screenshots summing up the frequencies produced by the two axes. Bottom Line, the Vax 500 59 Strat emulation had "something" of the real thing but was muddier/bassier, with an added mid "honk" and less dynamic - at least through a real amp: these differences tend to disappear through a digital modeler and/or recording. :-)
Regards,
FF
Length of cable???? Seriously???
The length of a unbalanced instrument cable UP TO 25 feet has almost no signal loss. If you are using a unbalanced cable for any reason longer than 25 feet - STOP and get a direct box, use a 25 foot cable MAXIMUM, then run the BALANCED signal from the Direct Box into your PA or what other thing you are trying to plug into at such a long distance. If you are needing to use such long cables to hook up into a typical guitar amp, then you will need TWO Direct Boxes. One where the guitar is, and one where the amp is so you will have a BALANCED signal for the majority of the length of your cable.
Anything else is simply wrong.
"The length of a unbalanced instrument cable UP TO 25 feet has almost no signal loss?" That's just not true. A guitar cable is a big long capacitor and different guitar cables vary widely in their capacitance. Combined with the source impedance, cable capacitance forms a low-pass filer between the instrument and amplifier; that is, it cuts high frequencies, much as the instrument’s tone control does. Compare a quality cable that has perhaps 22 pF/ft capacitance with one that has 50 pF/ft and you will defintely hear the difference even under 25 feet. For comparison, a common spec for capacitors used on tone controls for guitars with humbuckers is .022 uF. So using the cheap cable, say 20 feet, is like having your tone control engaged about 5% all the time. 5% seems small, but that 5% is what we guitar tone junkies are always looking for
. That almost imperceptable bit of sparkle that makes the guitar tone come alive.Now, you can purposefull use that to your advantage. Hendrix would often purposefully use a high capacitance cable live to tame a bit of the strat high end and get a fuller sound. A cable is a tool for tone like anything else from your pick and fingers all the way to the speaker.
OK, maybe I waxed a bit philosophical here.
I'm not arguing or even disagreeing with the physics you are mentioning. But if you or anyone else have ears that can hear that level of difference, then you and others like yourself should be in the Guinness book or records. My hearing is checked every 6 months since being a teenager and playing loud music which is much less loud these days. But my hearing tests always come back as above average.
The only suggestions I can make for you then is to buy the Line 6 wireless system which claims to be a good as a cable. Does Line 6 say what capacitance cable they're comparing their wireless systems to? Nope. Does this also mean that Pete Townsend was trying to control his sound from his LPs, SGs, etc, into his Hiwatt amps by using those god-awful curly guitar cords? I'm guessing that's not what he was thinking back then.
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toasterdude wrote:
Line 6 wireless actually sounds like if you plugged your guitar into the amp witha zero inch cable. I believe some models have a mode to simulate the cable.
Yeah, mine has a switch for that.
As far as hearing goes, eric johnson can reportedly hear the difference between battery brands in his pedals. My hearing is not that good, but my sense of taste seems to be somewhat heightened so I understand that sometimes others can hear a difference my ears may not. I am sort of glad I can't. I wouldn't want to have those ugly even tempered frets that steve vai is putting on his guitars. . . .ignorance is bliss!
I would LOVE a neck with true temperment frets!
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All these Earvana nuts and true temprament frets make me laugh because one of the key things that make a guitar sound like a guitar are its imperfections.
I'd love to know just how far people will go when trying to make an inherently imperfectly tuned instrument, perfectly tuned.
How would one control for temperature changes that will affect not only string tension but the expansion and contraction will affect every part of the guitar? What about string age, as soon as the metal starts to fatigue there will be variations. How should we control the precise point at which the string makes contact with the fret because any lateral force on the string will cause it to bend slightly and disrupt the intonation?
I see rock guitarists showing more concern for micro intonation than the world's leading classical guitarists. Take a look at the bridge, nut and frets on a Torres style classical guitar. Leading classical guitarists play guitars that can't be perfectly tuned. Yet a rock guitarist needs more precise intonation.
I just don't get it.
Cheers,
Crusty
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Crusty_Old_Rocker wrote:
All these Earvana nuts and true temprament frets make me laugh because one of the key things that make a guitar sound like a guitar are its imperfections.
I'd love to know just how far people will go when trying to make an inherently imperfectly tuned instrument, perfectly tuned.
How would one control for temperature changes that will affect not only string tension but the expansion and contraction will affect every part of the guitar? What about string age, as soon as the metal starts to fatigue there will be variations. How should we control the precise point at which the string makes contact with the fret because any lateral force on the string will cause it to bend slightly and disrupt the intonation?
I see rock guitarists showing more concern for micro intonation than the world's leading classical guitarists. Take a look at the bridge, nut and frets on a Torres style classical guitar. Leading classical guitarists play guitars that can't be perfectly tuned. Yet a rock guitarist needs more precise intonation.
I just don't get it.
Cheers,
Crusty
They make you laugh but they are actually using methods already employed by other instruments in order to make up for problems encountered by equal tempered tuned instruments suffering from inharmonicity problems. Theres nothing musical about about the open B string in a G chord performed on an open tuned guitar. Its simply out of tune.
Take a recording tuned to 440 and compare a zero position open string A major chord to chords barred above fifth and sixth position, and compare fretted thirds, and the difference can be dramatic, and obvious when clashing against a keyboard at 440. Using Earvana or the Feiten system goes a fair way towards compensating. I suppose its a matter of what is 'good enough'. A guitar tuned precisely to equal temperments has thirds that are rather off, and will clash noticeably in a recording. Many recording guitarist DO in fact alter what positions and intervals are played on recordings to compensate for the problems with equal tempered tuning of guitars.
Your also using a rather flawed arguement from authority (the mighty classical guitarists dont care, surely you should not). This is a fallacy. A classical guitar is equal temperment. Im not sure if you are attempting to say that either a) its not; or b) its not noticeablely so when playing with an ensemble; but either are incorrect. The inherent limitations of equal temperment tuning effect what positions pieces are played when playing with an ensemble. Dont confuse compensation of either performance or tuning to a lack of a problem.Additionally, many classical guitars use compensated nuts as well as comobinations of compensated nuts and saddle positions. Look up classical guitar intonation articles by Greg Byers.
Playing with pianos can be particulary problematic. They are tuned mostly equal tempered, but due to dramatic inharmonicity, are tuned differently among the higher and lower registers in order to sound in tune with itself. This can clash with a guitar depending on what range the piece is performed.
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Before to ask him something else, we can thank him and his mate for their efforts because the vid is already pretty informative! :-) So: Thx Neal!!!
Crusty, I love your depiction of the capacitive effect has "ooo" sounding. Spot on!
My desire to share my humble findings leads me to precise a couple of things. I hope it won't pollute this topic...
-it's not that easy to find the "right cable" in order to make a real Strat sound closer to the Variax models: not only the "capacitance per ft" of a cable changes according to its brand (although it's typically 150pf per meter) but "real" passive Strat pickups vary widely: some have a huge internal capacitance and other have a low one. Some have a lot of inductance vs some others... I remember a Mexican Strat that I had years ago and whose sound was way to middy to my ears. I've understood years later that 90's Mexican Strat pups could have 1,5X to 2X more inductance than a std American Fender pickup... FYI, it's the difference between a single coil and a HB ! So, if you want to "match" a Variax with a real Strat, experiment with several cables.
-keep in mind that the tone control of your Variax appears to add "a virtual length of virtual cable" from 10/10 to 6 (roughly) before to behave like a real regular tone control between 5 and 0/10 (roughly). At least it's the case in my Variax 500 since the 3.1 update.
-if you wonder why I've spent maaaany time to match my real guitars with my Variax: I need my guitars to have the same overall response because it modifies their way to "sit in the mix" when I'm on stage... That's why I have personally one "variaxifier cable" for EACH of my guitars with passive pickups. It allows me to go back an forth between Variax and real axes and to obtain the same kind of overall spectrum from all of 'em. :-)
-Footnote : to my ears, Line6 modelers appears to be less sensitive to capacitance than regular guitar amps. It's not a + nor a -. It's a feature. :-))
I add to this post a screenshot showing the response of a Variax vs a real Strat through a 20' then a 10' cable (Variax in white, real Strat in black, so the frequencies shared by the two axes are in grey). . In the first case, you can see that their response has the same shape, although the Variax is slightly louder in the low mids to high mids area. In the 2d picture, you can see how the shorter cable adds sparkle to the real guitar, leading it to sound brighter than the Variax...
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frenchfries wrote:
Crusty, I love your depiction of the capacitive effect has "ooo" sounding. Spot on!
Yeah, I didn't know how else to describe it, so it's good to see that you agree.
We also need to take into account the type of Strat modelled too. My 2008 American Deluxe sounds just like a Strat because it is... a Strat. But it doesn't sound the same as a '59 Strat. I'll also bet lots of $$$ that my 2008 American Deluxe wouldn't sound the same as the Mex Strat in the Video. Does that mean my Strat doesn't sound like a Strat? I hope not.
There is no doubt that the JTV sounds just like a Strat, the question is, which Strat and more importantly, who cares which Strat as long as it sounds like a Strat just like my Strat sounds like a Strat, just not the same Strat.
Cheers,
Crusty
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We also need to take into account the type of Strat modelled too. My 2008 American Deluxe sounds just like a Strat because it is... a Strat. But it doesn't sound the same as a '59 Strat. I'll also bet lots of $$$ that my 2008 American Deluxe wouldn't sound the same as the Mex Strat in the Video. Does that mean my Strat doesn't sound like a Strat? I hope not.
There is no doubt that the JTV sounds just like a Strat, the question is, which Strat and more importantly, who cares which Strat as long as it sounds like a Strat just like my Strat sounds like a Strat, just not the same Strat.
Cheers,
Crusty
Yes, Strat tones vary... I have two of them here and a Superstrat, and they all sound different. And the real L series that I have recently checked / fixed for a friend sounded different as well, even compared to the real 1963 model owned by another lucky friend... :-)
And no, people don't care to know which Strat we use as long as it sounds like a Strat... :-)) As explained in my last post above, I've just tried to obtain the same kind of "tonal spectrum" from my Variax and real guitars because it was USEFUL on stage: even if I have six amps and ten guitars here, I generally use 1 or 2 only of them on stage and I hate to reset all the tone controls of my amp(s) each time I change my guitar (when I break a string in the middle of a song, for example).
"Tuning" passive pickups with a cable is easy, not expensive, and absolutely efficient once we know how to do, at least through a regular guitar amp with a typical input sensitivity / impedance.
The picture added to my last post above clearly shows it. :-) (while the link added to my answer 16 opens a page whose samples allow to hear this effect).
Again, the goal of my answer(s) is to share my experience... and I'm not yet mad, although I get old! LOL.
Peacefully yours,
FF
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Crusty_Old_Rocker wrote:
Well when the JTV is available, I'll record both the Variax 700 and the JTV to provide a comparison. I just need to get that JTV.
Cheers,
Crusty
I look forward to any comparison posts you choose to do, but I already have a few vids I'm still editing video demoing patches side by side 700 vs. JTV with my friend Brian who was kind enough to help me out.
I'll be posting them on my forum once they are ready next week.
Take care,
Neal
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Crusty_Old_Rocker wrote:
Hey Neal,
Try reshooting the video with a 30' guitar cable on the Mex Strat and then compare the two.
Cheers,
Crusty
I always respect your thoughts and knowledge.
But seriously, less than 25 feet causes this tone thing to happen with Strats and probably all guitars?? How weird, I'm even more glad I never became a Fender Strat player...LOL
However, I DID KNOW why there were two sets of inputs on Marshall Plexi heads. Input 1 high & low was for the Les Paul type guitars as the tone was brighter, and the input 2 high and low was for Fender type guitars that was a darker input. Made such a GREAT sond when the jacks were jumped and you just used the two volume controls to create the tone you wanted. AH - THOSE WERE THE GOOD OLE DAYS!!
See ya,
Neal
PS - have ya seen my video comparison demo #1? I really would like your opinion if you care to share.
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